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Post by mike on Jan 28, 2008 9:36:58 GMT -6
They certainly pulled out a surprise there, wasn't expecting Cena to turn up and win but I didn't want him to win either. I wanted HHH to win but still if Cena goes to Mania and wins once again, and holds that belt for nearly a year again I can near enough say people will lose interest in RAW. I mean sure Cena has a ton of fans but surely they don't want to see another reign were he wins, wins, wins, wins and wins. I actually have enjoyed RAW since there was a new champ, its heated things up, but now with Cena back it seems like its only a matter of time before he wins the belt... 
Overall good rumble, good supporting matches. Glad neither champion lost their belts, Edge deserves a decent reign and Jeff Hardy isn't really a legit champion in the sense that he doesn't have good enough mic skills. Enjoyable to watch ringwise, but entertainment wise for me he's not a world champ.
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Christian Kane
Full Member
Well Personally I'd like to slay the dragon
Posts: 548
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Post by Christian Kane on Jan 28, 2008 9:55:12 GMT -6
When spike showed Davey the video I told them both that he would come back and win.. I didn't think it would really happen but I was right.
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Post by Spike Kane on Jan 28, 2008 13:41:26 GMT -6
*stabs Christian*
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Post by Christopher Esper on Jan 28, 2008 15:34:55 GMT -6
As far as the C.M. Punk business goes, I feel him losing the tittle is an angle to push him to the main show. WWE isn't stupid, wrestling business is what they do, there is a reason they are trillionaires. They know C.M. Punk was one of the biggest Indy stars next to Danielson, they all read wrestling observer, they know that Punk is bringing in viewers and he has HUGE face and heel potential. Why do you think Chavo is winning because of cheap shots from Edge? Punk isnt jobbing, hes getting screwed, heating up the fans. I'm thinking, and hoping after this Chavo feud is an Edge feud, and then by the end of 08 he's world title caliber.
And while thousands of people boo John Cena on tv, millions of people know who he is, millions of people are turning on the tv for him.
Just my two cents, love to openly discuss, take in mind I only started watching again a month ago.
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JFK
Senior Member
Sucks to be you.
Posts: 950
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Post by JFK on Jan 28, 2008 15:45:07 GMT -6
dude wwe doesnt give a **** what you do indy you can wrestle your ASS off but if you dont sell merch and tix they dont give a fuuuuuuck, as far as punk goes he's lucky because trips is actually quite high on him and his work ethic (it was said for the longest he HATED punk hence why it took so long for him to be brought up from ovw) so id expect a push for punk to smackdown here soon.
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Post by adm on Jan 28, 2008 16:00:02 GMT -6
Honestly, I've given up on Wrestling at this point. I don't get Spike, not like TNA is actually good enough to take my mind away from WWE f*cking the world over two years in a row. And don't get me started on books. I'd read more of them if I hadn't already read most of the stuff I don't have to buy to read.
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Post by Ricky Johnson on Jan 28, 2008 17:22:23 GMT -6
There was a time when TNA was able to remind us why we're fans.
Vince McMahon and Jim Ross do not care how talented people are. Look at everyone who came over from WCW when it ended that had talent. (Lance Storm, Sean O'Haire, ECT.) All of them were either released of underused.
WWE looks for a "Look". Guys like Chris Masters, Matt Morgan, Nathan Jones, Great Khali, The Boogeyman, & John Cena. Guys will either a unique look oer Huge or a good build. It doesn't matter if you can wrestle to WWE, it's all about if you can entertain the fans.
TNA back in the day was all about the Skill, with the X-Division and Superior Tag Team wrestling. But times are changing because TNA wants to use ex-WWE stars to try to imitate WWE in the worst way. Silly Gimmicks, Such as Shark Boy steve austin, The Guru Sonjay Dutt, and Black Machismo Jay Lethal take away from the talent that is Shark Boy, Sonjay, and Jay Lethal, are they "entertaining"? somewhat. But would it matter if they had a gimmick if they were putting on great matches? no.
Look at a guy like Danielson. He has changed his look many times, but he still delivers a great match. TNA needs to learn if doesn't need crazy gimmicks or retarded storylines to be successful, just push what makes you different....The X-Division. But with Team 3D in a retarded storyline to "Kill" The X-Divison, it takes away from both 3d and The X Division. TNA is a guilty as WWE of dumb angles and storylines in an attemtpt to push the product. Look how they messed up Senshi leaving the company, wouldn't it had made sense to have him get the "fired" briefcase at feast or fired? which he did, and then.....he loses it to Daniels? WTF dude.
And John Cena.......well, it's obvious he's winning the title at 'Mania, because he has a look, and a draw. I used to feel like the Rock was underserving, but then I saw him up his game, learn to wrestle more, take on better wrestlers than himself and hold his own, and increase his move set. It only took the Rock in 2000 about two months to really have me as a fan after he won the belt. Cena hasn't yet, because he refuses to add new moves, And other than working with Shawn Michaels, who had to cut a promo on him in the middle of their match at WM 23, hasn't had a decent wrestling match. and is unable to make his matches entertaining, because he always wins. I don't like Batista, but the fact is, he loses once in a while and I can respect that. When was the last time anyone PINNED John Cena clean? In fact, Cena hasn't shown me much since 2003 with fueds against The Undertaker and Kurt Angle. And we all know who carried those fueds.
There was letter in the latest issue of The Wrestler in which a fan writes in saying people should respect John Cena because of the long list of people he has defeated in rapid succession, so they shouldn't boo him. He questions why everyone hates Cena so much, since he has defeated so many top stars.
The answer is people don't like Cena because he is a medicore wrestler at best. He couldn't wrestle with guys like HBK, Orton, Punk, Undertaker, and even HHH. His lack of skill is so evident that it sticks out like a sore thumb. He does the same moves every match, only a few guys can get away with that, Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, guys with expierience. But they know when to use them, and it works well. Cena relys on the same things too often. How many times does HBK hit a flying forearm for the top rope elbow? Once? How often does The Undertaker go old school? Once a match. Cena uses his moves three or four times and they become stale. Overusage leads to the fans noticing a lack of creativity, and therefore, lack of skill. The Five Knuckle Shuffle is a ripoff of the people's elbow, end of story. Cena doesn't have the charisma the Rock or Hogan had, or Steve Austin had, So WWE should stop trying to Market him that way. But, 2008 will again be another year where Cena is shoved down our throats. This is a GOLDEN opportunity for TNA to go back to their wrestling roots and highlight the X Division, Get more Knockouts that can wrestle, like Lacey and Cheerleader Melissa, create a new mid-card title, and push wrestlers to the top. Relying on ex-wwe guys is not the way to go. I love Angle, Christian, & Booker, But it seems only Booker had done the right thing and push Robert Roode to main event status. Angle chose to help the already established Samoa Joe, and Christian has only worked with everybody established already from Angle to Sting to AJ. Christain only briefly worked with Kaz, and I think Kaz should be pushed too.
That my $1.25.
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Post by Danny Vice on Jan 28, 2008 18:54:27 GMT -6
Ok, no offense to you Ricky as I don't know you at all, but you lost me when your first sentence made no sense. Jim Ross does play-by-play, and is no longer involved in talent acquisition AT ALL. Johnny Ace does most of that, and Vince has a lot to say on everything. Ole JR doesn't do squat in that department, and hasn't for awhile now.
Now, I am in no way a Cena mark or a big fan of his, but you're all looking at this totally the wrong way.
1) Cena = $. Without money, WWE = TNA. Of course he's going to win the Rumble when he's in it and win at Mania. His merch sales are #1 BY A MILE, he draws the most PPV buys, and the highest RAW ratings outside of Edge. He is the #1 face draw, even with all his detractors, by a mile. Why do you think his pop was so huge?
2) Why waste his return on him losing? That would be a Vince Russo move. WWE is smart. They shock everyone with him back, then win the Rumble. RAW's ratings will go up this week.
3) Cena has had three EXCELLENT matches with the guys you mentioned. HHH/Cena at WM 22 was awesome. Cena/Orton as SummerSlam was MOTYC. Cena/HBK on RAW was excellent as well. ****, his match with Umaga at last year's Rumble was strong and his match with Khali was Khali's best by a mile. The guy uses the same moveset, because it gets a HUGE FACE REACTION from the crowd when he hits his six moves of doom or whatever he called them. Why did Scotty do the worm, or HBK kip up, or Austin's Thesz Press and stomp in every match? Because the crowd loves them.
4) The guy is excellent on the mic. Everyone, get past your hatred of him, and listen to him. He's so strong it's gross. Like Chris Jericho has said "if you call your opponent a chump and beat him, big deal, you beat a chump. if you lose, then a chump beat you." Cena not only gets himself over on the mic, he always gets his opponent, the match, and the PPV over. He knows the business, and for this he gets his push.
Ok, as for CM Punk. Punk is not jobbing. The guy hasn't gotten pinned cleanly in months. And if anything, this feud with Chavo is going to be his way to prove to management he deserves a major PPV spot. Look at what they're doing with Kennedy/HBK, it's the same thing they're doing with Punk/Chavo/Edge. No, Punk is getting pushed because of his connection witht he fans. You can be the best wrestler in the business, but if you don't connect you don't get **** (i.e. Shelton Benjamin, but he doesn't connect because he needs to be a face badly).
TNA. Oh god. For everything they do intelligently (make Tomko a legit tough guy, have 3D put the whole X Division over at the next PPV, put LAX on a winning streak, push Kaz, Kong/Kim, etc...) they do 100 STUPID things that are killing them (Shark Boy, Lethal, Dutt, Samoa Joe's whining, Chris Harris whining, Angle being a comedy character, anything involving Eric Young and James Storm, Kevin Nash...active wrestler). There's a great article on how to fix TNA around making their top guys actually "intimidating" and not jokes, but that's just a dream.
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Post by Xavier Williams on Jan 28, 2008 19:08:26 GMT -6
Why is everyone ****ting on Black Machismo... that whole gimmick is why Lethal got the push in the first place, his segments with Nash and Shelley, all built to this. who took a pretty lame gimmick and made something of it, and the fans love it... and to be hhonest Lethal was about as exciting as a wet napkin before he got involved with Nash and the Paparazzi Production thing.
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Post by Ricky Johnson on Jan 28, 2008 20:04:06 GMT -6
3) Cena has had three EXCELLENT matches with the guys you mentioned. HHH/Cena at WM 22 was awesome. Cena/Orton as SummerSlam was MOTYC. Cena/HBK on RAW was excellent as well. s**t, his match with Umaga at last year's Rumble was strong and his match with Khali was Khali's best by a mile. The guy uses the same moveset, because it gets a HUGE FACE REACTION from the crowd when he hits his six moves of doom or whatever he called them. Why did Scotty do the worm, or HBK kip up, or Austin's Thesz Press and stomp in every match? Because the crowd loves them. 4) The guy is excellent on the mic. Everyone, get past your hatred of him, and listen to him. He's so strong it's gross. Like Chris Jericho has said "if you call your opponent a chump and beat him, big deal, you beat a chump. if you lose, then a chump beat you." Cena not only gets himself over on the mic, he always gets his opponent, the match, and the PPV over. He knows the business, and for this he gets his push. My Point exactly. 3: You said it yourself.... 3 Excellent Matches. 3. that's it. Does this qualify him to be a top star? I'm sure I can find 3 excellent DAMIEN DEMENTO matches, but he wasn't a big name. Why would I want to watch a guy who is he has 12 ppv matches a year, and 3 are good? Why can't all 12 be good, or at least 6. That's half. And everyone ups there moveset at least a little every year. Cena's haven't moved for two years. He just does the minimum amount to get by. You can't tell me it's because it gets a good reaction. More people boo the five knuckle shuffle than anything else. 4: Cena on the mic....He's above average. Nothing special. He's inconsistant. He tries to hard to be a face. To sound like he's not useless. And really, I can ever remember him ever saying on the mic is......'The Champ is here' which he stole from Muhammad Ali. Or 'You want some, come get some..." which I think is the old WWF 'attiude' era shirt. You remember what Dusty Rhodes says on the mic. Flair on the mic. Austin on the mic. Undertaker on the mic. HBK on the mic, even HHH on the mic. On a Scale from Khali to the Rock, Cena's about on the same level as like Jeff Jarrett. And Cena=$. Yes. he does. But it's becoming less and less money every year. Becuase he's forced down fans throats. It's as if Vince is saying "like him dammit." and we just don't want to. I hate Cena because I see too much of him. I get a small doseage of guys who can wrestle Monday's Tuesday's and Fridays. A Bigger but still small amount on Thursdays, and a whole 5 gallon jug of useless, talent-challenged, guys who get over because of a look, rather than skill. Mark Henry has been in WWE for 12 years, and he knows 6 moves, why do they keep pushing him? So yes, you made a valid point, but Cena's not as good as he thinks, or any of his fans think, and true wrestling fans see right through him. |
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Post by Adam on Jan 28, 2008 20:11:34 GMT -6
I heart Ricky Johnson
and Awesome Kong
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Post by Christopher Esper on Jan 28, 2008 20:39:13 GMT -6
That line about Cena having ONLY 3 good matches was amazing, and I agree.
As for good wrestling, youre right, people don't watch wwe for wrestling. I remember a London vs Spanky pure wrestling match that got chants of "Boring" from the crowd. But I didn't mean Punk was big because he is a good wrestler, that's why he was big in the Indies, but in wwe he's big because he has a good tweener role, he looks "edgy".
Bryan Danielson's heel stuff is second to none, he's so good he makes the audience bad. That's a true heel, he brings you to the dark side. Second to that he is the best technical wrestler in the business. A guy like him could carry a federation. But like he says, he isn't about the money, and he likes having a personal relationship with the people that run the show. He'd be in the wwe now if he want, well that's how I feel.
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Post by Xavier Williams on Jan 28, 2008 22:14:20 GMT -6
I think people are confusing 2006 Cena with 2007 Cena. 2006 Cena got stale and boring, hence why we got a forced Edge and RVD title run, but as soon as the '07 Rumble hit, Cena was on his A-Game. Constant match of the year candidates, aside from hi smatch with Kahli. I mean lets face it, Cena is the WWE MVP. He works with a limited moveset, but when I think of it, no wrestler he faced had a wide variety of moves in their aresenal. All Cena's matches told a story, weither it be revenge, survival, over come the odds, denying destiny (HBK at WM 23), the fact the people wanted the guy to lose soooo bad is what makes the matches sooo good in the first place.
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Post by Dante Cross on Jan 28, 2008 22:37:24 GMT -6
Have you ever throught that the reason why most of us don't think Cena can wrestle well, is because alot of the time he is carried.
I mean, HBK can carry a bowl of pudding to a good match.
Edge has carried Cena several times
Orton is somewhat bland, but still is capable of being in a good match.
Seriously, I didn't consider the Orton/Cena match at Summerslam a MOTYC, It was good for both guys, but seriously wasn't that great of a match.
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Post by recklessjack on Jan 28, 2008 22:40:22 GMT -6
ARE YOU ****ING NUTS?!
How can you not think its a MOTYC. The whole match was based around Orton's destiny to become World Champion. The headlocks, everything led up to the punt kick and he took too long to set it up which gave Cena the opening that cost Orton the win in the long run. It's fantastic ring work.
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Post by Xavier Williams on Jan 28, 2008 22:46:03 GMT -6
Weither he is carried or not, it takes two people to make a good/great match. And he did carry Umaga and KAHLI for Christ's Sakes to a good match (best in their careers).
I am no Cena mark, but when a guy brings, you have to give the devil his due, he was the WWE's workhorse and he stepped up to the plate everytime he was asked to. And constantly put on good/great matches in '07.
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JFK
Senior Member
Sucks to be you.
Posts: 950
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Post by JFK on Jan 29, 2008 10:40:49 GMT -6
wait....Jeff Jarrett and cena...uh Jeff Jarrett is one of the best HEEL mic workers of ALL TIME everyone LOVES to hate him, he can push the crowds buttons at anytime and get any reaction he wants, JJ was, is and always will be one of the top heels of all time imo.
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